Sitting in my genetics class

While listening to the lecture, I had one of my rare and humbling moments when I realize how absolutely, fantastically, ridiculously amazing life is. The fail-safes in our genetic code... the amazingly organized ballet of transcription and protein production... the development of an entire organism from one fertilized egg cell... everything about life is staggeringly beautiful. Anyone who feels like "miracles" are amazing should take enough science courses to see that reality is far more amazing than any story in a book. I've had so many people tell me that it cheapens life to say it all came about by chance - but I think it makes it so much more valuable.

Evolution can be funny, too.

would you like to weigh in on a debate?

The following is a copied and pasted debate I attempted to have with a Christian who was evangelizing on the "Freedom From Religion Foundation" Facebook page. I edited nothing, except to change the names to "Christian" and "Atheist." My main reason for posting this is to ask for any skilled defense of the Christian stance in this argument, partially because I refuse to smugly believe that I am some sort of champion because I bested a well-meaning girl (with no concept of sentence structure) on Facebook. I've yet to have any kind of reasonable response to the questions I have posed. Here's your chance, Christendom. Yes it is long, and yes, most of you out there in internet land have no use for this kind of thing - but I do love a good debate. Please jump in at will - from either side. Or if this is not your cup of tea, please move on to something else at will. I know this is a bit unorthodox for a blog post. I just want more input. I'm a conversation junky.

Here it is:

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Christian: A..admit that you are a sinner..... B..belive that Jesus is Gods son....C..confess that Jesus is your savior and lord........ maybe some of you should think about this before its to late. Regardless what youve done or who you belive in Jesus loves you.

Atheist: I'm curious as to why you find it necessary to evangelize with a cute "ABC" catch-phrase, followed by a vague threat of god's judgment ("before it's too late"), and then proclaim the love of the god who will destroy the non-believers - all on a peaceful site. There is nothing about irreligion that would threaten you in any way. We have no books claiming to be written by the creator of the universe dictating morals to us by way of genocide, rape, and slavery (if you need scriptures, I'll site them). All we as non-religious people want is truth and free inquiry. There is no lake of fire and brimstone, no purgatory, no apocalypse, no oppressive gender and sexual laws, and no calls to war by cosmic forces among the atheists and agnostics of the world. What is it that makes the religious so insecure that they must threaten (directly or indirectly) those who disagree with them until they assimilate to their beliefs? I for one would much rather have someone come to a non-religious stance through a natural progression of inquiry and understanding than to have it brow-beaten into them. The religious people of the world have no such courtesy - they must either guilt, nag, torture, or suicide-bomb others into submission. Why? Is it because you think your god will kill us? If you do, then maybe you should give a second thought to worshiping that guy.

Christian: all you want is the truth? ok well here you go. there was a rich man (non believer) and a poor servant (believer) the rich man had all he had ever wanted on this earth and as many servants as he ever wanted. the poor man Lazarus didnt have anything but his God and faith he was coverd in sores and ate with the rich mans dogs.

well they both die, the rich man goes to that lake of fire that you don't believe in and Lazarus went to heaven.
well that lake was so hot that the rich man had to beg God for Lazarus to dip his finger in cool water and touch it to his tongue. Luke16 19-31
can you see wind? no. but you have faith its there right?
well just cause you have not seen the lake of fire and heaven doesn't mean its not there. What i said was not a threat that was a promise from the good book itself.
If you dont want to believe in it i cant make you no one can im just doing what i am on this earth to do that's tell as many people about our lord as i can. you have a right to believe whatever you would like. doesn't mean its right. just try this before you become closed minded and hardened look up this short passage in the new testament John 18 19 and 20.
do yourself a favor and do this please. jesus loves you

Atheist: I know that you're not specifically trying to be judgmental. I know this because for the vast majority of my life, I was on your side of this conversation. I believed that I was helping people. I was rescuing them from death at the hands of the man in the sky who created them. Now, here's the thing that gets me - you just called me closed minded. I spent NINETEEN YEARS of my life immersed in Christian culture. I've read the Bible cover to cover at LEAST three times. Every time I read that book, I had these twinges of conscience telling me - "Why did God make the rules so that one mistake made by one person would destroy mankind's future for countless generations? And why did he make the rules so that his son would have to be tortured to death? Was his hand forced? If he was in charge, why did he make the system set up to so easily digress to chaos?" I wondered why he punished the infant children of Egypt for Pharaoh's refusal to free slaves, instead of punishing Pharaoh himself. For that matter why did he punish Pharaoh for enslaving his people if he himself endorsed slavery (not to mention the rape of female prisoners after a genocide he endorsed Numbers 31:15-18). So, do you know what I did - for years? I CLOSED MY MIND TO THE QUESTIONS. So tell me, if you are so open minded, how many years have you spent exploring my point of view? I've read your passage countless times, and I know how you feel when you read it. It is so uplifting - until you really start to wonder.... Did god make the rules? Why did he require the torture of his son? If he didn't make that rule, whose rules does he follow?

You aren't threatening me with torture in hell - you're promising me that I will be tortured in hell. And you are proclaiming that your book is truth .....because it *says* it's true? I don't claim to be right because I say I'm right. I say I'm definitely more right today than I was yesterday - and I plan on being more right tomorrow. I'm *adaptable*

As much as you follow your comments with the love of your god, it's hard for me to take that at face value, since he's *promising* to kill me.

If your faith can't stand up to scrutiny, you shouldn't have it, so if you come out of this more faithful, good for you. However, if you refuse to seriously consider these questions, you have no conviction at all. If Jesus didn't want you to ask questions, he wouldn't have let you evolve such a magnificent brain.

P.S. - Wind has been scientifically proven to exist. See the weather channel.

Christian: The bible is scientifically proving itself to be true every day. read Revelation. this world as we know it is coming to an end I'm just doing my best to reach as many of these "intelligent" people as i can before it is to late. you can take shots at me all you want I'm doing what our lord wants me to do. Atheist God isn't promising to kill anyone. hes giving everyone a chance to choose they're own future. God could have just made us like robots where we did everything he told us to with no choices but he didn't he wanted us to have these choices. and as for the decision that Adam made, i would have done the same thing so would you. face it we are human we are not perfect. and if you spent 19 years in church you would know exactly why his son had to suffer and die for us there had to be an ultimate sacrifice for our sins. Oh and this is what Jesus would do. try to reach the people bound spend eternity in hell. its not to late to change your mind and it really is as easy as A.B.C.

Atheist:

i will currently ignore the topic of the bible constantly proving itself to be scientifically accurate. i've read every single thing you've got to sling on that one, and i will answer them if you like - in a civilized fashion.

christian, at this point i really just would love to get a straight answer from a christian on this question. it has never been answered by ANY religious person i have asked. you seem to be pretty into your religion and defending it, so maybe you'll step up to the plate.

Premise one: God created the laws of physics, the universe, etc. Pretty much there is no principle or thing or thought that predates God.

Agree?

Okay. If you don't, then you can explain that one to me. On to the question.

When making mankind, he made them so that there was one thing to tempt them, and he made them very curious - a quality that would make it extremely difficult not to give it a try. Now when god set this up, he had the right to decide what the punishment is, right? No one else told God what the rules would be - nothing predates him. So, he made the rules so that the one thing that Adam did, which was a result of his nature, resulted in an abundance of terrible things - agonizing child labor/mortality, death, sickness, pain, evil, etc - and could only be cured by the torture of god's son. You tell me that if I read the Bible and spent years studying Christianity, that I would know exactly why this had to happen. I've read it and re-read it, and asked anyone I could - all I ever got was, "It's a mystery." or "His ways are higher than ours."

That means you would rather not think about it.

So tell me: Why did God make the rules such that we were not mindless automatons, but if one guy is not an automaton about one command, God will torture his son to death and allow the world to descend into chaos?

Well if a guy who's all powerful can't figure out how to make fruit without its consumption resulting in a chaotic spiral of death and torture, forgive me for being doubtful.

Really, if you could shed some light, I'd be a lot less confused about why I spent so many years of my life cramming my beliefs down people's throats.

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That's it for now. Please, continue the convo. I'll add more if it gets interesting.

UPDATE!!!

response:

Christian: And too answer your question Atheist God did not make Adam and Eve curious. The Devil made them curious he tempted them to take the fruit. And the reason that God decided to punish Adam and Eve and the desendants was that the Earth was corrupt by the devil. They were no longer pure for they had sinned. Jesus had to die to make up for this sin and all the sin that will ever be commited. Otherwise each of us would have to suffer and die a horrible death, (which we deserve). God did this just as you punish a child. You discipline your child even though you love them. If your child killed someone they would be put to death by the government. Punishment.... but God loves us and does not want us to die so he sent his true son to die in our place. And when God created the devil he was good. Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways, but iniquity was found in him. It was not put there by God. Lucifer created it. found in Ezekial 28:15. And if God made us mindless followers of him when we worshipped or praised him what would that mean.... He gives us a choice. People can choose thier own fate and choose to follow him. I hope this answers your ? if you need more detail please tell me.

I will leave off pasting the conversation here, although it still goes on. I will admit, we both get less patient as time goes on. It never becomes a full on mud sling, but we do get a bit snippy. It's become exhausting. If you'd like to weigh in, please comment here or get on the FFRF page on facebook! Also here is a link to the remainder of the conversation on FB:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Freedom-From-Religion-Foundation/99536044727?v=wall&story_fbid=385996234727

Keep on thinkin', kids.